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What do you SKIN participants think of the block of color on the front of the mini-book?
I was distressed by JJ calling that particular color "fleshy".
Does it bother you? e.g., pink=skin therefore white=human...
What kind of skin did you have in mind before you saw that? Did it change when you saw it?
I was distressed by JJ calling that particular color "fleshy".
Does it bother you? e.g., pink=skin therefore white=human...
What kind of skin did you have in mind before you saw that? Did it change when you saw it?
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 7, 2004 - 8:24 AMWell, it was similar to the color of my bare fleshy skin, so it didn't distress me.
Except that it does look like a piece of pseudo-skin was grafted onto the front of the book. I poked it to be sure it wasn't warm.
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 7, 2004 - 9:57 AMWhen I received it, it was what I had pictured in my mind....it matched my flesh so I didnt think twice about it....however I do see your point regarding the color....but I think at times in this world we are to "PC" and sometimes you just have to let things go and move on.....
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 7, 2004 - 11:44 AMhonestly i didn't even think about it that way at all,
hmmm i wonder why it slipped my attention?
i really enjoy this book, the way it feels and looks- i think that if it were any other color besides some light tone, almost monochromatic, the book would loose a bit of it's appeal- for me at least.
so that said- is it the subject you may have issue with?
(out of curiosity)
peace light and art!
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 7, 2004 - 10:49 PMWell... I would love to hear if there was any other reaction to it other than, to paraphrase, "I'm white, so racism didn't cross my mind."
Anyone? -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 8, 2004 - 8:55 AMis that really what you thought i meant?
are you really responding to my response with that racism comment?
do you think that people skin is the only kind of skin to deal with in this world?
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"I'm white, so racism didn't cross my mind."
that is the most one sided descriminating comment i have heard in relation to an artistic response to a question, paraphrase your own intentions- not mine or my outlook to the world regardless of what you see as my skin color. you do not know what i have been through on this planet or my dealings with people-
have you ever had a brick thrown at your head because you are a jew?
i have
have you ever had to deal with nazi hate mail in such abundance that you had to leave the state?
my mom has
have you ever had to change your last name just to get a job to feed your family?
my grandfather had to
i could go on- but then you may paraphrase again-
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 8, 2004 - 8:31 PMActually, Faern, I wasn't responding to *your* posting *at all*. I sincerely apologize for lumping you in there. I do appreciate that you question why you didn't notice it.
And I was not thinking of human skin when I envisioned my participation in the project, so yes, I agree that there are more kinds of skin in this world than people skin.
My reaction was triggered when Judy *explicitly* called the color "fleshy". I didn't read anything into it, just had a reaction to the stated intention of the artist.
I should have been more explicit that my racism comment came from my emotional reaction to what the others have written. That was a very strong way to put it 'cause I felt it strongly. Maybe accusatory, even.
(Perhaps I should have *asked* if people felt that "X is in line with my experience/body, so I won't question its validity/power/relevance to others" is a sufficient response to an unchallenged assumption based in a dominant paradigm. But... people don't want to hear that either.)
Faern, I am sorry that your family has felt such abuse due to discrimination. That's just awful, and I have only recently realized that I am guilty of anti-Jewish sentiment, too. Because, in my mind, I have minimized the Jewish experience of oppression by the dominant culture. The Jewish people I grew up with were people of wealth and privilege greater than mine, so I resented and generalized that. It was only *last week* that someone said, "I am Jewish and I don't feel White" and I really heard it for the first time. Live and learn, huh?
I know that no one intended racism here. I know this art project will do no real harm. But shouldn't we question these things when they come up over and over? Shouldn't we not get too comfortable when the system is set up to keep people down and we are unwittingly doing their marketing for them?
Regardless of how I may have handled this episode, I am still triggered by "flesh-colored" band-aids and crayons and "skin-tone" ace bandages and a square of pinky-peach color on a book called "SKIN". There are worse things in the world to be guilty of than having emotions. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Sat, October 9, 2004 - 3:01 PM"What is the use fo a book," thought Alice, "without thoughts and conversations?" -lewis carroll
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 5:09 AMI'm not even sure if your comments were guided towards me, however, I did take the post that way. If it wasn't meant for me then stop reading...if it was.......well....read on ....read on.......
Racist: a person who believes in the doctorine of racialism or who advocates or practices racism. Racism: program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, persecution, and domination, based on racialism. Racialism: A doctorine or feeling of racial differences or antagonisms, especially with reference to supposed racial superiority, or purity; racial prejudice.
I have never believed that my race or even myself personlly has ever been superior to anyone. I do not advocate even the thought of being superior or racially better.
I did speak to a friend of mine whose skin is not "flesh"...hell mine doesn't even really match the supposed "flesh" in question perfectly...anyway......I asked her her thoughts....it bothered me to be labeled as a racist....something I am far from.....however......we both thought that it is a valid dicussion. regarding the color of "flesh" etc...the band-aid chat even came in to play.....I wanted her honest opinion...and she gave it to me...... I'm not going to go into lengthy detail her on what was said...however, she, and african american artist, said that she understood the argument but also felt as if before someone throws the race card into the game they need to know the players first and educate themselves on what is and what is not racism.
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Sun, October 10, 2004 - 9:08 PMI was a bit startled by the color on the front, to be honest. I didn't necessarily have a preconceived idea of what would be in the envelope, however I don't think I associated the "skin" thing to a "human" thing.
As for relating "pink" to "fleshy," I think all labels are annoying. But I'm used to most of them and like to pick my battles. I don't feel offended that the Band-Aid "flesh" tone doesn't match my skin tone, since nothing really does. I just think it's kind of silly. And does that color match anybody's, really? It looks more like Silly Putty.
There, that's my two cents. :)
MariNaomi
marinaomi.com -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 8:07 AMAlthough the pink skin doesn't match my skin, I wasn't offended. It also doesn't match the sheep-skin I have on my sofa.
Upon reflection, I decided that I am quite disappointed in our dear JudeJasmine for being such a crypto-speciesist.
And was anybody else disturbed by finding that the book was bound on the left (as indicated by the image on the "front"*), reinforcing a western right-handed left-to-right reading hegemony?
Your mass silence on this issue is quite sinister, really.
*if the image was on the "back," then I am quite wrong. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 8:49 AMlol... western dexteritious hegemony.
thats it, I'm making mine to open upwards like a calendar. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 5:38 PMMy name is jasmine, please refer to me as such.
I am disappointed in the direction this energy has gone...fight racism thru your actions, including your art, not attacking others. Discussion is great but, this theme and book are just starting points...reactions should be personal, we shouldn't all have to see the underlying racism hidden in this project, if any....if that is what moves you great incorporate it into your work. But as far a my intension idealistically I would like to hang these books from the center page a sort of sculptural book, I did not delegate a top, bottom, right, left or political view point. I offer a beginning, you tell me the end.
I may be cryptic, but I'm looking for inspriation from others not a predicatable outcome.
the first book has been returned, thanks suzanna! -
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Mon, October 11, 2004 - 8:03 PM>reactions should be personal, we shouldn't all have to see the underlying racism hidden in this project, if any
If you feel this way, then why did you suggest I take the matter up with the group, after I initially wrote to you privately?
You say you did not mean to specify anything about the book, but you have to admit that your culture informs yours plans, just as our culture informs our art and our reactions. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Tue, October 12, 2004 - 9:20 AM
do you think that people skin is the only kind of skin to deal with in this world? -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Tue, October 12, 2004 - 9:45 AMmy mistake- i forgot that this was minorly addressed-
i'll come up with something better-
but i would like to say that people on tribe (and everywhere) have been rather testy lately- and i am also disappointed in the direction of energy here with all of us being educated individuals i would hope there would be something better for us to focus on. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Tue, October 12, 2004 - 10:17 PMYes, it's true. Maybe it's the turning of the season or something...
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Wed, October 13, 2004 - 8:39 PM>If you feel this way, then why did you suggest I take the matter up with the group, after I initially wrote to you privately?
-to help you formulate the direction of your book
-it bothered you and maybe you needed some input, other points of view, etc.
-your personal reaction may be of interest to others
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Wed, October 13, 2004 - 9:17 PMSo then why are you disappointed? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 8:19 AMKnock it off, Amy. Talk about mail-art here, not your other agendas. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 8:46 AMI agree completely.......... -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 10:11 AMthis has become silly-
as if we can discuss cultural movements through racism and descrimination with an admitted anti-semite, anyways-
please back to the topic of mail art-
peace and light
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 10:11 AMthis has become silly-
as if we can discuss cultural movements through racism and descrimination with an admitted anti-semite, anyways-
please back to the topic of mail art-
peace and light -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 2:03 PMwait, a minute, whos the anti semite... not that it matters to me. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 14, 2004 - 3:30 PM""Faern, I am sorry that your family has felt such abuse due to discrimination. That's just awful, and I have only recently realized that I am guilty of anti-Jewish sentiment, too. Because, in my mind, I have minimized the Jewish experience of oppression by the dominant culture. The Jewish people I grew up with were people of wealth and privilege greater than mine, so I resented and generalized that. It was only *last week* that someone said, "I am Jewish and I don't feel White" and I really heard it for the first time. Live and learn, huh? ""
at least that's what i understood this paragraph as describing-
anyways- i shouldn't have posted that- it was a low blow-
but at the same time- i would rather no pity, especially in this manner. i posted my families' experiences to illustrate that descrimination has nothing to do with skin color- and so on-
done. -
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 15, 2004 - 12:06 AMOkay, I won't discuss my so-called "agenda" here anymore. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 15, 2004 - 8:22 AMAmy, I think it was brave (and stupid) of you to admit to tendancies you see in yourself when challenged.
This just isn't the place for them. A brief discussion, a mention, yes. But to critique others for not joining your dialogue in a tribe NOT devoted to those sort of dialogues is unfair.
As I mentioned above, you may have some important issues. Put them in an appropriate tribe.
Faern--ease up. You know d**n well what she meant. And if you don't, then you are going to have one difficult time functioning in a world populated by less-than-perfect people who acknowledge their weaknesses.
Ahem. Aren't these stamps just _lovely_ !!!! -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 15, 2004 - 8:32 AMcan i just say duh! to your comment to me...
i thought you were big on sarcasm and could pick it out easily-
like your which way the book opens remark-
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 15, 2004 - 8:34 AMsorry.
sarcasm is so difficult online.
tell ya what--let's shift this thread to people picking on me for not having started on my book yet.... -
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 21, 2004 - 5:08 PMIt seems to me that everyone in this discussion has good intentions and that there is a lot of misinterpretation going on. I may be wrong and I have not seen the "SKIN book". I think words can be very misleading. I really don't think anyone hear is a racist. Maybe it would be a good idea to ask one another their intentions in this discussion. Listen and learn. Good luck with the books.
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 21, 2004 - 10:12 PMIsn't flesh red? -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Mon, October 25, 2004 - 6:31 AMif your blind...then flesh is smooth... sometimes hairy...
but if you're blind you are probably not reading this....
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on the cover discussion-\:
since i haven't gotten the book yet I cannot respond completely... but on my personal reaction as an olive skinned Filipino American artist, I do not have any issues with a group Art book with pink skin on the cover.. that is that personal artist's choice. I doubt it has much to do with racism...just the artists take on skin (not all skin... just skin). If it wasn't a collective artist's book and was a book focusing about human skin, then there might be a race issue (or there might not)... but this is an ART book... so I would tend to look at it as artwork from a particular artist. But I'm probably stating the obvious...
If it was a book about shit and the cover was brown...I doubt anyone would have issues that shit comes in different colors as well... even red! -
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Unsu...
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Tue, October 26, 2004 - 10:46 PMRoger,
I am impressed with your response to this conflict. I completely agree with what you have said. Your response, as I interpret it, is very receptive and thoughtful.
Perhaps the skin is a pinky colour because the artist personally identifies with that colour as her skin. Art can be very personal, and personal connections can weave their way into pieces that may not be intended to be personal.
I unintentionally would identify with that pinky colour as skin because it is representative of my own skin, what I see everyday in the mirror. At the same time I am aware of the various skin colours of the world, and of the various tones within different colours. I am also aware of the different shapes and sizes of different bodies and shapes that make up individual faces.
Anyway, I was inspired to respond because what you have said is so logical and thoughtful at the same time. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 10:31 AMThanks Erin!
I remember as a child there was a crayola crayon called flesh and it was pink-ish. It's been a while since I've re-searched the color names of crayola crayons, but I wonder if they had since changed the name of that color to be more PC... -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 11:08 AMYes, they have. They have a new multi culti box of crayons. www.crayola.com/store/showdetl.cfm
They're actually very cool because you can get real flesh tones from the 16 colors. Frankly, I hated the old "flesh" color, it never looked like my skin and I'm a whitey. -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 28, 2004 - 4:42 AMI know what you mean......when I was little I never understood the color myself...I just knew that was the closest thing to my skin and I used it...I just knew that it wasn't the color of my librarian, or the folks on good times or the jefferson's...my two favorite shows......I grew up in a VERY mono-cultured area...so the folks on TV were the only non-white people I really saw.....so high school was an eye-opener and I am so happy that it was...... -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 28, 2004 - 10:07 AMinteresting aer, I grew up in a multi-cultured area... and didn't understand the true meaning of predjudice until after high school (with the exception of my militant predjudice grandfather)... and I still don't 'get it' (but who does?).
...but the color on that crayon was just an understood color as was all the pink Barbies and G I Joes... even cartoon characters. They were either pink or they was an occassional black doll... but never anything in between. It's good that things have changed since then.
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 28, 2004 - 1:10 PMYes, it is nice to see a change in attitudes. I grew up in a small town in Southwestern Virginia....so I didn't really know pre-judice until high school...didn't like it at all....once I made it to college, I realized that not everybody was as "uptight" about things as they were in my little town.... -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 28, 2004 - 2:37 PMby the way aer... I've been fond of you art since I joined tribe a while ago and came across your work... just thought I'd let you know that...
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Thu, October 28, 2004 - 2:41 PM"your art" that is... now I sound like a stalker... ha! -
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 29, 2004 - 12:18 PMThanks!....good to know someone out there is stalking me for good purposes!
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Re: "Flesh" color on SKIN book
Fri, October 29, 2004 - 12:23 PMThanks!....good to know someone out there is stalking me for good purposes!
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